This conversation is part one of our three-part Lead/Forward series, where we talk with technology leaders about the real stories behind three themes: innovation, talent, and experience. In this episode, we tackle the theme of innovation from the standpoint of solving problems in unique ways that surprise and delight users and provide them with solutions they never knew they needed. Jason Conyard, VMware CIO, talks about how the term "innovation" is overused. He focuses on what's really required: a change in mindset as opposed to just a transformation in technology. During our chat, we cover how innovation can mean many things to many people and how creativity, trust, and diversity is what we're really talking about when we use the word innovation.
This conversation is part one of our three-part Lead/Forward series, where we talk with technology leaders about the real stories behind three themes: innovation, talent, and experience. In this episode, we tackle the theme of innovation from the standpoint of solving problems in unique ways that surprise and delight users and provide them with solutions they never knew they needed. Jason Conyard, VMware CIO, talks about how the term "innovation" is overused. He focuses on what's really required: a change in mindset as opposed to just a transformation in technology. During our chat, we cover how innovation can mean many things to many people and how creativity, trust, and diversity is what we're really talking about when we use the word innovation.
Jason Conyard on Twitter: https://twitter.com/JasonConyard
CIO Exchange on Twitter: https://twitter.com/vmwcioexchange
Yadin Porter de León on Twitter: https://twitter.com/porterdeleon
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Jason Conyard:
You have to create a fertile ground, which means having a culture that is genuinely supportive of creating the time and space for people to think. It means having a set of values that recognize that that's okay, you can genuinely do that and that is seen as valuable and rewarding to the organization, as well as to the people that work in it. It requires a sense of confidence that you can fail.
Yadin Porter de León:
Welcome to the CIO Exchange Podcast, where we talk about what's working, what's not, and what's next. I'm Yadin Porter de León. This conversation is part of our three-part Lead Forward series, where we talk with technology leaders about the real stories behind three things; innovation, talent, and experience. In this episode, we tackle the theme of innovation from the standpoint of solving problems in unique ways that surprise and delight users and provides them with solutions they never knew they needed.
Yadin Porter de León:
Jason Conyard. VMware CIO, talks about how the term innovation is overused. He focuses on what's really required. And that's a change in mindset as opposed to just a transformation in technology. During our chat, we cover how innovation can mean many things to many people, and how creativity, trust, and diversity is what we're really talking about when we use the word innovation.
Yadin Porter de León:
Jason, I want to start from a good foundation. The topic of innovation, it's gotten convoluted. It's been pulled in so many different directions from process innovation, from Silicon Valley, to logistics, to all these different things that people have slapped the innovation label on too. I think it's good to take a step back and level set. When we're talking about it, when you're thinking about it, how do you like to define it when you're having that conversation with your peers or other people on your team when you're talking about innovation, how do you like to look at that?
Jason Conyard:
Let's start with the word, innovation. I think it is way overused.
Yadin Porter de León:
Just a tad.
Jason Conyard:
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that it's often used as a replacement for something else. Often we're talking about creativity, we're talking about how we solve problems using new approaches, whether that's new processes, new policies or, even technology. But I think it is way, way overused. When I think of innovation, I think about the space program from the '60s. I'm thinking about where necessity has been the mother of invention, where humanity and the very nature of life as we know it is on the line. So I think we use innovation, we throw it around a little bit too much when in fact, what we really were talking about is creativity. And I think that's where I think we can have a real conversation, which is how do we stimulate creativity in a meaningful way to an end, whether that end is in education, whether it's in science, whether it's in commerce and business, that's where I think we should really be talking.
Yadin Porter de León:
Let me sort of touch on one thing that you talked about. Because I think when people talk about innovation, they are talking about novelty, or creativity in that certain circumstance. And it's good to get on the same page with that. And so where do you think that the need to use the word innovation, especially from in a technology leader perspective, do you feel like it's needed in order to gain recognition, in order to gain budget share? Do you think, if someone came to the board and said, "Hey, I want to do something really creative." The board would be like, "What?" Or the executive staff would be like, "What? I don't think that...we're supposed to be innovative. Oh no, this is really creative. We need to do it this way." Do you think that it's leveraged to be spectacular, to communicate, to tell a broader story? Or do you just feel like it's maybe potentially used because people aren't being specific, people aren't getting intentional, people aren't being strategic, so they say innovative because they feel like it communicates some of those things, when really, they need to get more specific?
Jason Conyard:
I think it's hyperbole.
Yadin Porter de León:
Yeah.
Jason Conyard:
And I think that we should be more specific. Look, it's often a replacement. When people talk about being innovative, they're often talking about, especially in a commercial environment, they're talking about how they can be the next Uber.
Yadin Porter de León:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Jason Conyard:
They're talking about how they can transform an industry in a way that brings tremendous value, by providing new capabilities, solving existing problems, maybe in new ways, or maybe providing new capabilities that people had never imagined. So I think when it's used in its truest sense, there's nothing wrong with it. But I think it's often a replacement for something else.
Yadin Porter de León:
So, yeah. I like how you talked about solving things in new ways, and there being no shortage of ideas of how to solve those. It seems like ideas are that fuel in order to solve problems in new and interesting ways. I think it's really good to underscore that. And then maybe, to have innovation, does it have to be emerging technology? There's some of the stuff that you're working on that is more leading, bleeding edge.
Jason Conyard:
That's true. There are definitely things that we're working on, which are much newer or less tried and tested and obvious. I will also tell you that I love to see creativity that comes from old tech.
Yadin Porter de León:
Interesting.
Jason Conyard:
Or from technologies and things that have existed a long way, but people have imagined new ways of assembling them. So let me give you a very simple example. I've talked about our colleague photo management tool in the past, and that's where we've essentially said, "How can we make it easier for people to have their identity shared across our business systems?" Now, does that sell more product? No. But in a world that has been distributed or hybrid now for almost two years, being able to see the likeness of your colleague across our business systems allows people to feel more connected and more human. So that didn't require the creation of a new special technology to make it happen. It required people to think about a problem differently, and to develop a solution that could make it happen.
Yadin Porter de León:
Aren't you supposed to use blockchain for something like that, Jason?
Jason Conyard:
And the other thing, joking aside, is that sometimes technology can be absolutely the wrong thing to use, or creating or using a new technology can be the wrong thing to use. So I think people sometimes conflate the idea that you have to use a new piece of technology to solve a problem. Sometimes it really is an act of creativity, seeing the value. My goodness, think about sustainability, and people that are finding ways of recycling clothes or materials in different ways so they can extend the life of them. That's not necessarily creating a new material, but it's seeing a new future for something that's existed. So, that to me is an act of creativity.
Yadin Porter de León:
That fascinates me because it is. You don't need a middle line of code, or a new piece of technology, or a new framework in order to say, "Look at, we're going to innovate the way that we do this." Sometimes it just takes a mindset. It takes a process innovation, or takes a cultural, or team, or organizational innovation where you say, "Look at, we're going to look at things differently and we're going to do things differently." And I don't know if you provide that team with that opportunity in order to take what exists and take it further, or imagine it in new ways.
Jason Conyard:
Yes, absolutely. I think it requires a number of things. You have to create a fertile ground, which means having a culture that is genuinely supportive of creating the time and space for people to think. It means having a set of values that recognize that, that's okay, that you can genuinely do that, and that is seen as valuable and rewarding to the organization, as well as to the people that work in it. It requires a sense of confidence that you can fail. The reality is that most things we try aren't successful the first time. Some of them help us build new ideas in our minds, help us develop new concepts. And sometimes those concepts are just not ready at that moment. Sometimes you want to put them back on the shelf.
Jason Conyard:
So I know there are a lot of things the emerging tech team works on that we'll stop at some point. There's normally some arbitrary gates along the way where we'll go, okay, you know what? We've learned about as much as we're going to on this topic right now. Maybe there's a piece of technology that doesn't exist yet. Maybe the need isn't as ripe as we thought it was. And we'll put it back on the shelf. And a number of those things will get taken off again and spun up in new ways. Maybe not solving the original intent, but adding value in new ways. But you've got to have a culture that's supportive of that. You've got to value those things. You've got to create an environment where people feel they can take risks and they can fail.
Jason Conyard:
And I think the other thing I would add to this, which is very near and dear to my heart, is that I put a very high importance on people from diverse backgrounds working together that are multidisciplinary. Because they come at things afresh, they see things differently, and then you start to see the edge effect. You start to see people bouncing ideas off around each other, not necessarily knowing what the textbook answer is, but starting to imagine things in new ways. And I get very excited when that happens, because I know that there's at least going to be a very, very interesting conversation that occurs.
Yadin Porter de León:
Yeah, you're going to be challenged. Yes.
Jason Conyard:
Yeah. There's a really powerful and an insightful conversation that's going to occur, and the chances are, there'll be something tangible that will come out of that as well.
Yadin Porter de León:
Yeah. Because I think there's that fear and resistance to that kind of perspective as well, either there's a fear of incumbents who are originally in a team saying, "This is someone from outside, their perspective is different, this challenges my point of view and potentially challenges my status in a particular role." And this goes straight to human nature. But when you get those outside perspectives all of a sudden, now you have a different level of curiosity. And you may even have ignorance, or maybe people who don't even know as much about the technology. And I was actually just talking to a technology leader yesterday, where they were really excited about talking to someone who had no idea how the technology worked, and asked a bunch of questions that made everyone think about it differently.
Yadin Porter de León:
And I think that's a powerful way. And so that diversity of thought and diversity of discipline too. And that may just not be people from different walks of life, but maybe creative people, people who aren't necessarily from science or technologists, maybe coming together and pulling together and having those different kind of perspectives. And maybe you can kind of give me a sense of how you foster that in your own team, and how you like to encourage that, and some of the ways that that behavior is incented, the way that you encourage and inspire in your own team, I'd love to hear that perspective.
Jason Conyard:
Actually, I want to pick on up on this, if you don't mind, and not yet answer that question. But talk about something that I think builds very clearly and thoughtfully from that, which is there has been, for a number of years now, a tremendous amount of emphasis that's been placed on STEM. I'm sure many of our listeners know STEM stands for science, technology, engineering, and math.
Yadin Porter de León:
Yeah.
Jason Conyard:
Or maths as we like to say in the old country.
Yadin Porter de León:
Yeah.
Jason Conyard:
And I think that's great and it's certainly true that VMware is very supportive of all of those topics, as am I. But I also think that there's a really important item that gets missed out in all of this, the rush for more STEM is ignoring the arts. And when we talk about creativity and we talk about the value we get from a multidisciplinary approach, I think it's essential that we don't just, do a nod to the arts. We don't just think of that as being some extracurricular thing, or something that you might do as a minor or something. But actually recognize the importance of the arts, recognize the importance of people that study and major in English, and fine arts, and music, and disciplines that don't necessarily fit into that STEM-only approach.
Jason Conyard:
And there's a good write-up on this, I think it's in Forbes magazine, by Bernard Marr who's a futurist. I'd encourage your listeners to Google him on LinkedIn, and maybe on Forbes, and take a read. But he really suggests that the term should really be STEAM, not STEM, put the a back into the mix there, and look for talent in the unusual places.
Jason Conyard:
I would also say, we are in a incredibly talent-competitive situation right now. We're all looking for people all over the world that can do amazing work, both at VMware and just about every other company on the planet. And I think one of the ways we can make inroads here is to open our aperture, recognize that the right person for the roles we have may not fit this very defined, traditional scope that we have.
Yadin Porter de León:
Absolutely. And I love that you mentioned that, because you have this standard, and this is not to dismiss any of the efforts that are done from the hiring and acquisition and talent building thing. But we have this sort of traditional system that says, "Hey, we're looking for someone who's done the same thing over and over again, and has done it a whole bunch of times. And we're going to de-risk this particular hire and pull someone in who's done this whole bunch of times." And some people have said, "Oh, well, I have to really focus on this one thing and do the same thing over." And then we put them in a role. And then we ask them to think outside the box, to think creatively, to come invent. It's like, if you like feed someone a steady diet of conformity and compliance their entire life, and then tell them to be super, super creative once they actually get the role, there's two different stories being told here. And we do, we want those people who just, outside the box. And you don't have to have maybe, 10 years experience in Go, when Go hasn't even been around for 10 years. That doesn't make any sense.
Jason Conyard:
So it's the old adage, right? The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome.
Yadin Porter de León:
Absolutely.
Jason Conyard:
I think that we need to be prepared to do different things, and we should look for people with different experiences in different backgrounds, and not be afraid of that. We should welcome it.
Yadin Porter de León:
Yeah. And I think that multiple discipline is a great state... because that really fascinates me, because it's the greatest thinking. Like when you look at something, let's say, the way that the Mandalorian film was shot. They had 10 or 11 different, I'm sure that I'm getting the number wrong, but many different directors, shooting all these different episodes. And Jon Favreau, who did this wonderful Mandalorian thing, it was just so beautiful and well-crafted. It came from all these different perspective, not just one vision, not just one view, not just one mode. And that's sort of a beautiful analogy for the creativity piece. And when you're looking at solving problems, and you've said this before Jason too, where technology may not always be the answer. But the perspective, the idea, the point of view, the voices that discussion, that creative, interesting, engaging discussion in order to come to that answer is where you need those--
Jason Conyard:
That's where the magic is.
Yadin Porter de León:
Yes, exactly. [crosstalk 00:15:09] Exactly.
Jason Conyard:
Yeah. That's where the magic happens.
Yadin Porter de León:
Yeah.
Jason Conyard:
Yeah.
Yadin Porter de León:
That's fantastic. And then, extending the idea of creativity and innovation. I'm a huge fan of Clayton Christensen. Many of those people who've worked with me like him know. And Clayton Christensen, who became the father of Disruptive Innovation with the publication of his book, The Innovators Dilemma, created almost cult-like following in Silicon Valley and other areas of idea that disruption is linked to innovation. Like you said, everyone's trying to become the next Uber.
Yadin Porter de León:
It's funny, because one total aside, but disruptive innovation means something that most people don't really understand and use incorrectly, but I'm going to get off my soapbox about that one. I want to hear your perspective on do you think that whole disruption of wanting to be the next Uber, or the next Tesla, or whatever that is. Do you think that's gone too far? And do you think this innovation, like you're talking about where the magic happens is in these creative conversations, and does innovation then have to be disruptive? Does it have to be game-changing and blowing up some other industry and turning it on its head?
Jason Conyard:
So the old quote is, "Necessity is the mother of invention." It isn't, "Desire is the mother of invention." And I think that if you look at the times in human history where real innovation, innovation that is profound, because I think profound and innovation are really synonymous, I think they should be. If you really mean innovation, in its truest sense, it should be profound. Where that happens, more often than not, is the result of necessity.
Jason Conyard:
And you could make the case that when you think about Uber and ridesharing platforms, that that was an industry that was ripe for disruption, because it was stale and hadn't really been reinvented for probably a hundred years, maybe longer. And that there was this confluence of the capability of technology, the ubiquity of mobile devices, this ubiquity of connectedness, and the fact that there was a service that was fundamentally under-serving its customers. And those things came together. So you could argue, is it a bit of a stretch that it was a necessity? Maybe. But there was a very ripe need to be solved. There are a lot of companies that are innovating that are trying to find what the next thing is, I mean, the Valley's full of companies, actually not just the valley anymore, places all over the planet are full of companies trying to find what the next thing is that will make them a unicorn.
Yadin Porter de León:
Yeah. That's the goal. I feel like the goal should be something different, but that being aside.
Jason Conyard:
Yeah, well, how about saving the planet?
Yadin Porter de León:
Yeah, exactly.
Jason Conyard:
So, you want to talk about necessity being the mother of invention. How about we apply some of that intellect, that smart, that creativity, that thoughtfulness, that collaboration towards some of these challenges, which are not just about making more money, but are genuinely about making the world a better place. So is it over-hyped? I think the term innovation is. Do I think that disruption can be innovative? Absolutely. Sometimes I'd like to see it focused in areas that will further all of us, not just necessarily a few of us.
Yadin Porter de León:
Yeah. I think that's a great perspective, because it is something if you want to talk about profound, if you want to talk about real innovation, talking about changing the human condition. Nothing could be more profound and life-changing for the people of the planet than solving some of the intractable problems that we ourself as a race have created through what we have called previously innovation, through industrial revolutionizing the planet, and being so creative that we decided to create this massive [inaudible 00:19:08]. So destructive innovation, we're extremely good at, I have to say. One thread I really wanted to pull on that I think is really aligned to that, and that is creating that culture of moving things forward through making mistakes through, through failure, because like you said, most things, they don't work. A lot of the greatest ideas didn't work the first time, or the second time, or even the 10th time.
Yadin Porter de León:
And I have to say like as a father of two children, if making money is about moving fast and breaking things, then my two kids are going to do really, really well in Silicon Valley. Because they move really fast and they break a lot of stuff. So I'm ready to let them loose on some of these great problems that we have.
Yadin Porter de León:
So what are the great opportunities that you see for that sort of next step in creativity and success, but through the eyes of, what are companies getting wrong about innovating? How are they looking at it incorrectly, or maybe not incorrectly, but what's a better perspective? What's a better way to look at the opportunity there, so that we can learn from the mistakes that we've made in the past as companies? And this is really for the peers out there in other industries, where do we feel like that opportunity lies in allowing ourselves to learn from those mistakes?
Jason Conyard:
So I think it's important too that organizations have clarity of purpose. I think that's very important. I think that while I use the example that we have an innovation team within IT at VMware, that is a team that has a few permanent members and a number of people that rotate through the team. So we're trying to keep it fresh, we're trying to keep real about rotating different ideas and different perspectives in. We also lend members of that team to other parts of the company. They do rotations with the different product groups inside of the company to provide perspective. So I think keeping it fresh is super important.
Jason Conyard:
But I also think keeping it real is important. So there's this balancing act between, I want to give you enough space and time so you can go and imagine and be creative and really just go crazy in thinking about possibilities. And there of examples of things that we've done as a result, which are super interesting or will yield fruit in the future. But also grounding the team as well in very tangible outcomes. So we try and mix those things up. We've got a very big system upgrade going on right now for the company as part of our evolution to being a Multi-Cloud provider. And I've pulled a few people from this emerging tech team to focus on some of those very challenging issues, some things that allow us to think about our architectures and our designs differently. So give people space to imagine, ground them also with real problems, so they have to flex between those things. So you get a blend of that happening as well, and you get the benefit, the halo of that imagination and that creativity occurring as well.
Jason Conyard:
Don't be shy about shutting things down. And this is really hard, because you're talking about something that someone may be very emotionally invested in. And this is not a call on them as a person, it's a call on the idea saying that idea isn't necessarily ripe, let's, as I said earlier, let's put it back on the shelf and maybe we'll come back to it. And being a little ruthless about that, because if someone's passionate about their idea, they're really invested in it, they're going to keep trying to find ways of sustaining that. And sometimes doing that when it's like, no, no, no, we really are done with this. So I think that's important.
Yadin Porter de León:
Yeah. And I like that too. In engaging with people too, because there's nothing more personal in taking some of your time, your life, and giving it to a project, giving it to a company, giving a team. And then you invest yourself, almost part of your identity, if not all your identity in some cases to this thing, this, whatever you're working on. And I think it's fascinating, and can you give me your insight on how you foster a culture in which people can invest instead in the journey, invest in the conversation, invest in the quest and the vision, rather than investing in, this is mine, this is my product, this is my service. This is my, whatever that is, and allow them to understand that, hey, this is experiment you're going to go through this journey and then you're also going to let it go and then you're going to move on to something else. Because I think that's a critical thing of having that conversation, because it's almost like a dance that you're having with this individual.
Jason Conyard:
Yeah, absolutely. I think one of the other things that I would note is that we've also had a lot of success with patent filings. I'm not going to give you the specific numbers, but significant product.
Yadin Porter de León:
We'll just put all those in the show notes that [crosstalk 00:24:05] put the patents.
Jason Conyard:
What's interesting there, Yadin, right, is that how often do companies think about IT departments being the source of patent filings?
Yadin Porter de León:
It's pretty rare. No, that's something unique. it's not something that people say that's where our patent filings are going to come from.
Jason Conyard:
Yeah. And then in terms of those actually turning into final patents, it's actually a very impressive number of ideas that the team have originated and have been registered through the company. And that's an ongoing thing, that's not like a once-off thing. The number is already north of 10 for the IT team this year.
Yadin Porter de León:
Wow. Just in one year then? I would say the word inspiring actually comes to mind when I think about that. And your goal is just thinking, "Oh wow. Hey, this new service is really loved.", or it's like, "No, our efforts result in patents and new ways of doing things." I mean, there's not more of a proof of concept than getting a patent for it.
Yadin Porter de León:
On that same line of thought though, when someone's sort of looking towards that, I imagine it's a team effort necessarily. There might be multiple people involved in that. And then having someone opt into that as that journey, without having them too involved in saying, "Hey, this is going to be the next patent." It's like, "Well, no, this is a journey to the next patent." And could have continue that dance of, it's really great that you have this, but at the same time, imagine there's a management of expectations where you have to say, "This is how we're going to get there." And maybe that's your perspective. And it's that journey of how you get there, not, that is a destination, but at the same time, it's this north star. And I don't know if you thread that needle.
Jason Conyard:
Yeah. So for me, patents aren't the outcome we're looking for.
Yadin Porter de León:
Exactly.
Jason Conyard:
The outcome we're looking for is for people to think about different challenges we have, explore new opportunities, identifying technologies that can be repurposed, or old technologies can be repurposed, or new technologies that can be harnessed. And yeah, sometimes that results in a patent, but we don't celebrate the patents differently from our other successes. And more than anything else, the goal of this team is for us to learn. If we learn, if we progress our thinking, then I believe we've been successful.
Yadin Porter de León:
No, I think that's great that you point that out, the fact that you celebrate those two equally. That's something that I think is somewhat known, but at the same time really needs to be underscored. I think it is, if there is a failure where you learn from something, then that should be celebrated. Not that it was an absolute disaster you're going to, yay, we're going to have a party, this is great. But the learning and the journey I think are the key outcomes of those particular efforts, and I think that's something that really needs to be underscored.
Yadin Porter de León:
So with that in mind, the team is sort of this complex organism, this idea of innovation, and driving a team towards that, is this maybe, potentially, ephemeral component too. But I wanted to sort of wrap these ideas into a way that, let's say, a colleague of yours would then take and say, "This is where I take that first step." If they're in, let's say, a situation which their teams aren't on that journey, they aren't incented, and aren't, have a culture necessarily to, to fail, to celebrate learnings. And then they have maybe either not an innovation mindset, or the idea of innovation is the [inaudible 00:27:31] shiniest thing, or it's a disruptive mindset.
Yadin Porter de León:
What would you say that that next step would be for the technology leader, for the organization, that business to say, "This is the way you need to just take a breath, you need to stop building on top of what you were building before that is either fragile, or fractured, or legacy." and start to say, "This would be my way to take that first step forward in developing what you'd feel would be an innovative culture, and one that fosters solving problems in new ways."
Jason Conyard:
Small steps. And I think that a leader's responsibility is to create the space where people can do that. And that doesn't have to be a team, it doesn't have to be a full-time job. Sometimes it's about carving out a little bit of time for an individual, or a couple of individuals to explore something. Maybe it's driving in efficiency and, in a process, reducing the friction that exists in an organization, or in a particular system. So I think it doesn't have to be this bold, grand gesture that costs a lot of time and money. I think you can start small. And I think you use those small examples and you build on them. You solve that small, irritating problem that everybody's been dealing with for awhile and gain credibility to go back to the well and do some more. I think that's essential. And I think that's something any leader can do is to figure out how to create just a little bit of space for their team to do that.
Jason Conyard:
I think the other thing as well is to, and I'm going to kind of connect this a little bit with a sense of community, is you don't always have to be solving a business problem in a commercial setting. Sometimes it's a charitable thing, something that's a community-based thing where the team uses their knowledge and skill to help maybe a community organization to give back. So we can do this in lots of different ways. It doesn't have to be this multi-million dollar, thousands of human hours investment to demonstrate creativity and to further a cause.
Yadin Porter de León:
Ah, so you don't have to ask the board for a hundred-million dollars in order to be innovative. There's not a set price tag for innovation. I think that's a clearer thing that you should sort of put out there too.
Yadin Porter de León:
So Jason, you've talked about some things that are really fascinating about creativity, about innovation. What really interests me is how do you identify those opportunities, and to leverage those, to engage with those?
Jason Conyard:
So I mentioned that we collect different ideas from people and we get their input. But I think it comes from a heightened sense of empathy, really looking to not just listen to what people are saying, but really understanding what they mean. There's the old Henry Ford quote about, if I'd given them what they wanted, I'd've given them faster horses. And that's oft used, but it's often used because it's very, very telling, which is if you just do an amazing job of solving for the thing that they tell you that they want, you're missing this huge opportunity. So one of the things that I'm very proud of with the team is that we intensely listen to what people are saying, really understand where they're coming from, understand what the outcome is they're striving for, and then help them, through that sense of empathy and creativity, help them actually solve for what it is that they truly need. That's an important part of the process for us.
Yadin Porter de León:
Yeah, no, I think that could be powerful too. And I think having empathy, being able to see something through their perspectives and talk about outcomes, because many, many systems have been built on top of dysfunctional processes that people said, "Well, this is the way we do things. We stamp a piece of paper here and then it goes a slot. Can you do that?" In the digital world, can you just replicate that dysfunction process? And it's like, well, what's the outcome? Well, I want to make sure that I de-risk this, or I want to make sure that this gets approved, or I want to make sure this person has this great experience. Well, let's completely design that totally differently. And so there's another piece of empathy that, I like to say empathy comes with therapy, at the same time where you have to say, "I need to coach you and say the way you did it before isn't exactly the best way to do it." Because I know there's always some resistance to, "Hey, let's do it in a different way."
Yadin Porter de León:
How do you then approach that piece of empathy where, I see what you need, I understand what you're saying, not exactly what you're asking for, but this is what you need. How do you then help them understand that what they need isn't a digital replication of a dysfunctional process that existed, but instead to change the way they do things in a way that's going to serve the outcome better? And do you have to walk people through that, is that a process that you have to sit them down and convince them that, "Hey, you're going to have to do something differently now."
Jason Conyard:
I think it becomes a muscle that you have to develop and cultivate. But it also comes from a very deep sense of wanting to help people be successful. And yeah, that requires, as you say, requires coaching and navigating difficult situations. Sometimes they're vested interests in old ideas, and just trying to help people untangle those things and focus on the outcome. When you get lots of disparate folk focused on the same outcome, it becomes an awful lot easier to tear down the obstacles that are in your way.
Yadin Porter de León:
Nice. So do you have a therapy couch in your office? Just say, "Okay. I know your line of business, leader. Just lie down. We're going to talk about this."
Jason Conyard:
Yeah. A virtual one.
Yadin Porter de León:
Excellent. All right. So Jason, this has been a great conversation. I think those listening too might be thinking, where else could they find you, or could they see some of the other work or the thoughts that you might have out there? Do you want to share some of the places they can find you out there in the, what is that called, the metaverse now, Jason, that place out there.
Jason Conyard:
So I can definitely be found on Twitter at JRConyard as well as on LinkedIn. So I look forward to connecting with people there.
Yadin Porter de León:
Excellent. Well, thank you, Jason for joining the CIO Exchange Podcast as a part of our Lead Forward series.
Yadin Porter de León:
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